WELL, well, well. Derby day went down quietly and without controversy, leaving us without much to talk about….wait what? Officials disallowed what? Neville dived……but I thought he slammed such behaviour?
Two goals up you say? Wow, has there ever been a quiet, uneventful derby?
The only problem is where to start, but start we must and to avoid verbal diarrhoea (an unfortunate curse I was born with) I have identified some topic areas to focus on.
Performance & Result
This is a hard area to try and focus on with the topsy-turvy nature of what happened yesterday. The elation at our start and two goal lead, followed by the bitter taste of losing that lead and subsequent relief of getting to half-time on level terms, despite the barrage by the Blues. The worry caused by the formation change leading to the hope of a winner as we were able to get a foothold in the game, and then finally the sheer unadulterated joy of watching Suarez score, followed by the disbelief of it being disallowed, followed by the utter dread as Everton then broke away, followed by rage as the nonsense decision became increasingly apparent. How can you even begin to construct anything sensible given that ride?
So I have waited a day and tried to step back and look rationally at the situation. Leaving circumstances to one side I think overall 2-2 was a fair result and for us, an excellent result. As per normal the derby was played in a cauldron-like, intimidating atmosphere that can make or break a player. By my reckoning the average age of our starting Xl was 24.2 in stark comparison to Everton’s which was 28.7, and whereas our Merseyside Derby debutants included the likes of Suso, Sterling and Wisdom, Everton’s included Mirallas who has spent time in Greece with those fervent supporters, and Naismith who has grown up with the Old Firm clashes.
It is well accepted that this is possibly Everton’s strongest side in years that missed only Pienaar, who have started the season on fire, again in stark comparison to a Liverpool side still in the early stages of building a team, with a shaky start missing the calming influences of Reina, Johnson and Lucas. Yet the first 20 minutes belonged to the young Reds as we started strong and counter punched brilliantly and effectively. The two Everton goals can be attributed to a series of individual errors that have punished before, this season and last, yet the blow of conceding the equaliser could have sent us flying and allowed floodgates to open – but we held strong in the face of an onslaught akin to Helms Deep (got to love a LOTR reference).
The most pleasing performance for me was that of Sterling who looked a cert for a substitution or red card in the first-half, only to thrive in that central role second-half (always always been a fan of two up top). As for our other youngsters I thought that despite struggling a bit, Wisdom did ok in face of Baines and Mirallas who were excellent; Suso and Sahin were solid enough; Allen was immense and never backed down from Fellaini in physical battles and Shelvey made a difference when he came on. Considering our young emerging team were away to an established, confident side riding high I felt we performed well and got a good result.
As a disclaimer, yes it is frustrating as hell to lose a 2 goal lead and allow ourselves to be bossed in the way we were in that first half, but it is crucial that we as supporters take positives and leave the rollickings to Rodgers. Times like these, with an emerging side slowly building confidence and momentum, as well as blooding young lads, there has to be an emotional detachment to view constructively. Are we heading in the right direction? I think so.
The Everton goals came from situations that can be addressed in training but the steel, dedication and fight shown in light of losing a 2 goal lead and almost taking the 3 points cannot. You can ‘educate’ a player in where to position himself but you can’t give him fight.
Rodgers
I think we saw a real big test of Rodgers at Goodison Park, and one in which personally I think he passed. He stayed faithful to the young lads which will boost confidence and saw him rewarded with a 2 goal lead. Credit where it is due, Everton then were excellent in their response and by the end of the half we did well to go in level. A key decision in this game was the formation change and introduction of Coates (a man I have a lot of love for, is that weird?), although I’m sure some may disagree. Whilst Everton still remained on top for large parts, I felt we contained the play much better, restricting Everton and taking the wind out of their sails. Had Everton been allowed to continue the second how they ended the first we would have lost.
Rodgers showed serious cojones to change formation, and regardless of what you think of him, it is crucial for any team to have a manager strong enough to make big decisions – nobody likes a ditherer! Is three at the back a back-up plan or possibly the future? Can you imagine the thought process when the opposition is attacking our goal and looks up to see Agger, Skrtel and Coates in his way? I think I would pass them the ball and apologise profusely!
FA Issues
I’m going to steer clear of the obvious beef here, besides saying that talk of conspiracy and cheating officials is wide of the mark; more worrying is that the linesman is either incompetent in that he couldn’t see Suarez was onside, or simply not able to handle the pressure – either way clearly not ready for the Premier League.
The issue I think needs addressing concerns comments, in this instance, made by Moyes pre-match. The FA states that it is an offence that a manager may not talk about the referee in the build up to a match, be it either positively or negatively. Fair enough I hear some say, as it may put pressure on an official. Yet it is perfectly ok for a manager to talk about an opposition player in the way Moyes did? We all know that the thought process behind this is exactly the same as Ferguson, Pulis et al, to put the notion of Suarez being a cheat at the forefront of an officials mind. The end goal is the same, just the approach differs.
I must say it was sweet irony that the only booking for ‘simulation’ (I noted that they called it simulation and not diving as it wasn’t Suarez) was for the Everton Captain.
Fellaini
Seriously, how does this guy get away with it again and again and again?? Aside from all the fouls and niggles, he kicked Allen. That’s right, Allen, who is half his size, when he was on the floor! Bravery that!
If you made it this far then thanks for sticking with me and I hoped it helped with the Insomnia! Haha! I would love to hear your opinions whether the same as mine or different, it whats makes the beautiful game beautiful. Come find me on twitter @timdibs YNWA.
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RATIONAL ? I couldn’t resist, I thought this’ll be interesting to see if rational equates to unbiased. Offside or not is irrelevant. The footage is out there if you need to see it again. Suarez should have long gone ( foul on Mirallas which caused him to leave the game was bad enough, foul on Distin was worthy of a red card on its own), and Coates had both hands on Jagielka’s shoulders when he took a piggy back ride to head the ball down. Anywhere else on the pitch the ref blows for a foul if he sees it. Your kids did well in the cauldron, and if they keep up their progress, there could be some gems there.
Didnt Mirallas hurt himself turning Wisdom (lovely bit of skill by the way). Going down the Suarez should have been off argument would also lead to questions about Mirallas persistent fouling as well as the Fellaini kick on Allen, so a large grey area. Personally, and yes this could be because of red glasses, I didnt think Coates fouled Jag, but the decision was for offside, which was wrong. 2-2 probably a fair result in the end
Wrong decision, correct outcome
Telling lies there Steve. Good lad.
Miralles went off with an injury to his RIGHT FOOT. He injured his right footed when he turned Wisdom just inside the box late in the first half and immediately had to have treatment. Suarez caught him on the left ankle, he jumped straight up from that.
Tackle of Distin was never a red card. Don’t talk rubbish.
Very good of you to comment on Fellaini’s indiscretions, when two awful tackles by Suarez remained unmentioned. I know you are a Liverpool based web-site, and report as such, but as a neutral reader I find your article just unacceptable. Maybe you should have sat back and considered your options a bit longer before writing.
What do you disagree with Barney?
Very good, certainly helped my insomnia…
What I say about officials decisions, is that none of the controversy has anything to do with conspiracy theory; but everything to do with Professional Standards – we are seeing repeated incompetence which costs Clubs points.
If the Professional Game really wants professional standards, there has to be transparent scrutiny of audible or visible decisions; i.e what took the linesman so long yesterday to flag a decision that ‘he thought’ was correct?
Until such scrutiny exists, there will be no professional standards; & people being well paid for incompetence will also continue.
Many thanks for your review
Regards, Jim
no conspiracy perhaps but how many decisions have wrongly gone against liverpool ? and how many have wrongly gone in favour of man u ?
something isnt adding up , and suarez’s unpopularity is costing us decisions every game unfairly
You mention Fellaini
Check this out
http://members.boardhost.com/peoplesforum/msg/1351461363.html
Is there anyone who can see LFC no.7 getting within a yard of the ball when he makes his ” tackle ” ?
If you can keep your head when all Reds about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all Reds doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise,
You’ll be a justifiably embittered blue,
But not in their eyes.
The footage is out there.
2 things are crystal clear after the derby
1 . we need rodgers and gerrard or whoever to stop being mr nice guys and being more outspoken against the refs . the approach of not criticising refs ( whilst admirable ) didnt work for kenny last year , doesnt work for anyone . is it a coincidence that man u get so many decisions ? no
refs and linesmen are scared of being on the wrong end of fergusons fury after a match . ferguson puts pressure on some before games , its not nice – but it works .
does anyone think really , that the linesman yesterday ,obviously not being sure , would have raised that flag against a ferguson team ?
its time for rodgers and co to start defending liverpool better !
2 . we need a proper strong midfielder , like a souness , whelan or mcmahon . we were so weak in midfield , sahin has some excuse because he is new to the PL , but allen must go , the more i see the less impressed i get every week . we dont need a sideways midfielder that cant defend great . he is not liverpool standard and it is getting more obvious every game
Responding to your points Bob
1. It’s really tough, you say Rodgers isn’t strong enough with refs yet he has already been told off for criticising them this season! Absolutely bonkers!! Fergie has become unquestionable in some areas which is very wrong.
2. This point really surprises me! Personally I’m a huge fan of Allen and I think he is settling in brilliantly! I do agree we need some steel in the middle and Lucas returning will allow Allen/Sahin/shelvey/Gerrard to truly express themselves! To play the Rodgers way we need to retain possession and Allen is key to that
rodgers might have to put up with a few touchline bans etc , but it is worth it , if at times like on sunday , the linesman wont takes a guess – because he would come in for criticism after and have the spotlight on him .
i think it was around the 85th minute , allen recieved the ball in space from enrique about half way ,with loads ahead to aim at , he turned to pass back to agger before changing his mind turned back again, and passed to gerrard .
that sums him up , safety 1st , he is weak and not good enough defensively . midfield is the most important position and sideways midfielders are 10 a penny ( we already had henderson , spearing and lucas ) . allen and lack of finishers are the 2 main reasons for mid table mediocrity . he even admitted 2 weeks ago how he was outclassed by modric . liverpool deserve better
i think you are crazy if you want to slate allen for not having xabi alonso vision. For the record, i can only think of 2 other players that come close and that’s pirlo and our captain. You can mention xavi but he has the privilege of doing it much further up the field. There’s only 1 xa but allen is purely a gem. He tries hollywood, you’ll be the first to call him charlie adam!!
i agree that allen is sub standard , i would rather shelvey than the welch 12 year old
i agrree with verdict on allen . with BRs gameplan the 2 centre backs are pulled wide at times and that hole is filled by allen . he is not big enough , commanding enough or a good enough defender if we lose it .
certainly if we are losing a game , we need to get allen off as he only knows how to go backwards . YNWA
Allen must go? What are you talking about? What a stupid statement.
What is obvious Bob is that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
shut up you ugly troll
I’m sick of all this anti liverpool sh*** everywhere so I’ve got no prob withis guy having a biased opinion. Am sick of all the Suarez hate too, he fouled him and he fouled so and so (fellaini kicking allen when he was on the ground?)didn’t anyone see the coins bouncing off Suarez on the line? If that had been liverpool fans throwing coins It’d be on every paper in the country! As far as I’m concerned there is a witch-hunt for the club and for Luis Suarez but dya know what they can all f***-off! YNWA
we all agree . the club needs to go to the FA and demand fairness
i think we must go back to two up front . two new strikers , and two centre midfielders needed . sahin and allen are not good enough , and maybe a new left back
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
stop trolling fool
we have the best midfield in the world ! alonso,gerrard , mascherano . those days are long gone
gerrard is still good but not what he was , shelvey has potential and when fit lucas is good . but sahin , allen and henderson are not liverpool quality and should be removed
we need at least 5 , so gerrard shelvey lucas +2 more top topplayers
Sahin and Allen are both better than Shelvey and in 2012, they are better than Gerrard and have constantly outperformed him this season.
rubbish , go watch some games
The best midfield in the world was certainly something to be proud of!! Why did we lose them? Oh yeah, because the club was horribly mismanaged by a pair of cowboys that almost destroyed us and set back our progress years!! This is a reality, we could quite easily have been a Leeds or a Portsmouth but we are not. The price paid has seen us starting a fresh without champions league football, the carrot on the stick to get the Creme de la Creme.
I must admit I am absolutely amazed at some of the beef being thrown the way of Joe Allen!
personally speaking I think he has been a cracking buy and will be at the centre of our midfield for years! people that moan about his passing and how it is too often backwards have obviously been listening far too much to Alan Shearer. The Liverpool style now under Rodgers is primarily about ball retention, keeping the ball moving and building with patience and exhausting the opposition by keeping them chasing. rodgers himself has described him as a’welsh xavi’ and whilst it would be foolish to directly compare the ethos is similar. Allen is able to receive the ball in any situaion and position and make sure LFC keep the ball by redistributing. By doing so he then allows those around him to create their own space. Let us not forget that without Lucas in the side it is restricting him offensively some what also.
As for defensively, Allen steps up to the plate each game and has the ability to deal with those annoying players that drift between defence and attack, admitedly not to the same level as lucas or masch but then it is not his game. he was awesome against yaya toure and was excellent against fellaini, so much so the belgian resorted to kicking him.
dont know if you have been watching all the games mate ? but if its about ball retention + possession , why did everton ( long ball team ) have 56% on sunday ?
allen was outclassed and dominated on sunday again . he is inept , too weak and plays backwards.
when i think of all the players before allen . souness , mascherano , alonso , whelan ,case , mcmahon to name a few . allen is not a liverpool player , he is a mid table team player.
maybe thats what we get for having a small club manager , i mean hodgson thought the average players he signed could do a job for a club like liverpool . he was wrong !
rodgers has started similarly , signing average average players ( allen assaidi borini ) who are not good enough
im actually shocked at some of the comments on this site . people are too accepting of average performances and average players
we are liverpool for gods sake – not bloody coventry
ps
whilst it is great that our fans get behind players and support them , me included , ill always applaud effort .
it does amaze me that every time we sign ANYBODY , our fans always think they are going to be world beaters . even when we signed assaidi ( i dont even think he is PL quality , let alone good enough for us ) , fans were finding clips of skill on youtube etc and commenting on what a class player we have . its laughable
we all want them to succeed , but wanting it and actually signing decent players are different things . im sure that if we signed mickey mouse in january , fans would be on here saying what a great signing he is , and how his ears and cheery attitude will make all the difference to our team .
lets get real people . rodgers signings are poor , its not their fault , but we should be saying ” this is not good enough , we want better ”
rant over
how on earth have you judged assaidi in a red shirt? while i agree it is ludicrous to suggest that he is a world beater based on his limited time on the pitch and youtube, it is also ludicrous to write him off. Support him and back him and he may well become a lucas.
You should just stop commenting. You’re clearly a moron with no idea.
I watch all of the games and have been utterly impressed with him. your next point seems nonsensical as you suggest the theory adopted for ball retention is not the case because Everton had more posession?? Its a derby game in which a lot of aspects of play end up out of the window. Everton are flying, with a settled mature team and playing at home, is anyone surprised they saw more of the ball? really?
outclassed by who? Fellaini was nowhere near as effective as he could be because of allen! everytime he dropped between the lines allen was there. weak? really? in the face of players like toure and fellaini who are almost twice his size he has stood his ground.
Your comments about the new signings and Rodgers are unbelievably short sighted! on what evidence are you basing your comments on? all have played/managed less than 20 times for LFC and you have written them off? let me guess Lucas should have be sold yeah? check Rush’s record when he first joined!
Is it so hard to realise the current situation we find ourselves in? The club has been horribly mismanaged off the pitch and in parts on the picth for a number of years now and we have slipped. We are starting over, hiring a young manager with a plan that is being backed (to some extent), will it click immediately? of course not, what does? but to write off in October is pathetic.
1. A question for you kirbyking, you have today been handed full unlimited control of the running of the club, what do you do?
2. After 2 months your changes have seen the same results as the previous 2 months what do you do?
Teams prosper from stability. chopping and changing managers rarely works in the long term. You pick who you believe can take the club forward and you bavck until the position is untenable. is that the case here? do me a favour.
further question, when is it right to judge a player? my suggestion would be when they leave the club not after a quarter of the season
we judge players when we see them , maybe foreign lads need 2 \3 months to settle but anyone else should be firing from day 1
You are arguably the most retarded person to have commented on this article. Utter stupidity seeps from your every word.
you should stop trolling and sneering at people’s opinions because you dont like them
I certainly don’t think there is any “conspiracy”, but where there’s smoke there’s fire. If people think the match fixing could never happen in the EPL they need a reality check. Its the most profitable league in the world, NOT the best and there are certainly people out there profiting from it in unscrupulous ways. There are just too many dodgy decisions being made that directly affected the outcome of games. If it can happen in Italy it can certainly happen in the EPL.
As for the vilification of Suarez I really don’t think its an anti Liverpool crusade, it seems to me that the British media is extremely xenophobic, and in suarez they’ve found the ultimate villain to persecute. It certainly not a conscious decision, but a “they do it, not us” mentality. Its evident in the wording of articles like the example of diving and simulation and how “pundit” and commentators over look or trivialise English transgressers. Exactly like how match fixing happened it Italy, could never happen in England. There’s too much money involved for it to be so squeaky clean. Money is the root to all evil after all.
However it will not tarnish my affection for Liverpool FC. You’ll never walk alone…
fair point! corruption and money walk hand in hand and there is a lot of money about! to completely dismiss corruption in the game is as silly as suggesting the ‘offside’ suarez goal was as a result of conspiracy
if money is evil , send me yours
i think judging sahin and assaidi is unfair , they haven’t overly impressed but may need time to settle in . sahin is obviously a class player for real madrid to have signed him
but i have seen allen on many occasions for swansea ahd wales and every game for LFC .and i dont think he is good enough for us . for me he is a decent fetcher and carrier . not great going forward or defensvily . iliverpool should have players with more in their locker
I think judging any of them of them so early is ridonkulous! Allen has played 12 games for Liverpool, winning player of the month of August and welsh player of the year along the way!
Only Wales you say? Beat off competition from the likes of Bale and Ramsay. Have we seen him going forward as yet? Not properly as he has had to play deeper in the absence of Lucas. More in his locker? What do you want? He can receive the ball in any situation and retain possession, constantly provides options for those on the ball, the ability to dictate the pace of a game, and is able to influence the game defensively. Was awesome against Yaya Tourefor example.
The fact people are slating him is astounding really but hey I suppose he isn’t ronamess van xaviesta!
tell the truth , you are his agent ! yes ?
responding to some of your Qs tim –
with allen or anyone else ,its about perspective – if i was a watford fan with joe allen , he would be my hero
if i was a swansea fan with joe allen – i would think he was brilliant
if i was a spurs fan – id be happy with him as a squad player
if i was a city or chelsea fan id be disgusted at the poor quality of player we were buying
i still consider liverpool a top club , better than spurs and should have the same or better standards than city or chelsea . maybe i am being too proud and not admitting that our standards have slipped , but i think we should have the highest standards and not sign average players .
about how long it takes to judge a player . let me ask u this . if for example liverpool signed say – jason roberts from reading or jamie mackie from QPR . would you say ‘ great , lets see how they do , judge them after a year ‘ or ‘ hang on a minute – these are average players and not good enough for our club ‘ ? be honest !
of course i have judged poorly before – i thought crouch was rubbish when we signed him , and morientes pure class , but i think we as fans should demand better
In answer to your question, you have to trust the judgement of a manager! Do I rate Roberts or mackie? Not really, but I would suggest Rodgers has a better eye for a player than me especially one he has a lot of experience working with.
It is wrong to judge a player before they have had a chance no? Morientes is a good example you used, but on the flip side in recent years we have Lucas and Mcallister. How many people wrote off Lucas to now state he is irreplacable?
My point is he has had 12 games and you are writing off as not good enough? He was our player of the month for August? Won a national award ahead of the likes of bale! I’m just puzzled as to how you don’t rate him!
tim ,i wasnt seriously asking your opinion on those 2 players . i was using roberts and mackie as examples of players that are so far below liverpool standards , that we already know they are not good enough , therefore we dont have to wait before judging them .
i have seen allen for 2 years and dont think he is good enough . he is a good player , but really its liverpool , we can do better ,
international player of the year awards are a bit silly , bale was out injured half of last year anyway .
I wasny answering seriously, the point was there has to be a certain level of faith in the manager and who he brings in! Rodgers wanted Allen badly which says something
You can dismiss the award if you want but it seems that within the game the opinion of him is much different. Personally speaking I’m impressed. But neither of our opinions matter really, Rodgers does he rates him, simple as! I think Allen has settled well and drawn praise from stevie in the process, I think we will see him blossom and and flourish, particularly with Lucas returning
me again tim , just wanted to pick up up on a point you made – you trust rodgers judgement . why ? he hasnt earned or warranted trust yet . if it was paisley rafa or kenny , with a history of buying great players ,then yes of course you would trust their judgement . but not rodgers yet .
so far , what have we got ? cant judge yesil , sahin is only a loan .allen looks average , borini disappointing and i really think assaidi is a cheap squad filler nothing more . 10 -12 games is more than enough to judge now , of course opinions can change later . if a youth like morgan or ngoo played 10 games like borini did , they would probably never play for liverpool again . we must higher our standards and expectations
players cant be given months to fit in like they can at other clubs , you must take your chance , hit the ground running ( like sterling and wisdom ) . we cant afford to have weak performers and be giving them 6-9 months to adjust etc . liverpool players need to perform to a high level consistently now , and i dont think the new players have
in the end , tactics , style of football , luck are all secondary . a manager having success or not – depends on his signings . if he brings great players in – we will have a great team . average players – average team .
in my opinion he hasnt had a good start
Lets not wear rose tinted glasses here, I can’t think of a single manager in football that has a history of buying great players without the odd duffer! For every alonso we had a Nunez! Yes I agree trust has to be earned but you can’t start from a position of mistrust. Rodgers got the job for a reason and has a clear direction, like him or not the club needs stability and time.
How on earth is 12 games enough to judge?? Again we go back to Lucas, how long did it take for him to settle? Not every signing can hit the ground running like a Torres or a Suarez, some need time to adapt to a new home, a club such as Liverpool and so on. My point about having faith in Rodgers is that he clearly knows more than you or I and has worked extensively with the likes of Allen and borini so knows what they are about.
Some players need time to adapt, otherwise you end like qpr and using 60 odd players in 2 years! Rush didn’t score his first for over a year, good job patience was shown to him eh!
On paper the start has been poor, in reality the starting point when he took over was not where it should be, form and confidence was shot, a legend had been sacked coupled with orders from above to trim the wage bill followed by mistakes in the transfer market.
morientes and kewell – the 2 biggest disappointments in my liverpool life . i thought they were the dogs boll** before they signed
how did this turn into the joe allen debate ? might as well give my opinion so .
i dont think he is good enough either , and to think of the positions we really need filling , i think spending 15m on a ok midfielder is criminal . think what attacking players we could have got for that
That’s the beauty of football chat Clive!! I must admit its frustrating and confusing for me that some see Allen differently to me but that’s what it is all about. People thinking differently and exchanging views without being nasty or offensive is almost as good as a last minute winner!
As for your last point, with Rodgers wanting a certain style is it not important for him to secure the spine and who he wants centrally first before getting the flair? I think he would have wanted 1 or 2 more guys in in August but c’est la vie, we have seen suso and sterling progress!
We are a work in progress and I firmly believe we are heading in the right direction and personally I think Allen will star for us
there are hundreds of better players we could av ad for 15 million. i think allen is athe same as henderson , same type – good passers not much else . id prefer henderson because of his size and strength
Bonkers statement!
1. How do you know who was available to Liverpool for 15m?
2. How do you know, and are that confident, that said signing would work out?
3. Do you not think there is a reason as to why Rodgers wanted Allen so much?
Just a couple of titbits to add in favour of joe Allen
1. Won possession more times than anyone in the league
2. This season attempted 636 passes, 5th best in league
3. completing 92.5% which is not bad considering his role to date has been to retain possession, second in league to arteta
4. 30% passes have gone forward compared to only 10% going backwards
5. He is 22, much younger than those around him in those stat tables
Yet apparently he only passes backwards and is rubbish defensively. In a system where possession is king a completion rate that high with that many passes is key.
In face of statistical backing like this, club and country awards, manager and captain backing, what is it some don’t like? Because he came from Swansea? Because he isn’t a ‘name’?
i dont want to keep criticising allen , he is our player , and whether i think he is any good or not is irrelevant , he tries so does deserve support . this will be my last on allen .
the opta stats are nonsense , sideways , backwards passers always have better percentages than say a gerrard , its easy to pass safely 10 yards per pass . i could find 10 million ways to ridicule opta so please dont use that .
about lucas 1st 2 seasons – he wasnt up to it , it affected the team + results negatively , he should have got up to speed in reserves or on loan . only rafas stubbornness kept him in the team . we cant afford to wait 2 years or even 6 months for players to get that level of performance needed to play in a red shirt . it doesn’t matter about the potential , ie – if sterling wasnt doing it , then he should go back to reserves till he is at a high level – not taking up a place in the team
I dont think you can completely disregard opta stats bob. Of course a player like allen will have higher pass completion than a player like gerrard because there roles in the team differ. You couldnt have a team of gerrard type players (although to be fair a team of gerrards would be decent!!!) just as much as you cant have a team of allen type players. they complement.
also you cant make a statement like ‘easy to pass safely 10 yards’. Take Barcelona for example, messi, iniesta and xavi will see the majority of their passes at 10 yards or less but will normally receive the ball surrounded by opposition players, is that an easy pass? no.
What you havent mentioned is that the stats show that allen passes forward 3 times to every 1 he passes backwards and that he is the best in the league at winning possession. this clearly shows up the fallisy that he only passes backwards (thanks Shearer) and cant defend.
so by your reckoning a player doesnt get 6 months? ok hypothetically speaking borini, allen, assaidi, sterling, suso, sahin and wisdom (new players this season) where does that leave us? till january using further youth players? what if they dont hit the ground running? of course players need time to settle and it is up to the manager to handle this correctly
no a player should not get 6 months or even 2 months if their level is not good enough . sterling ,suso , wisdom are doing it ( if they weren’t , there are others who should step in ) . sahin is ok . allen debatable , but borini hasnt . when fit he shouldn’t play ,unless he finds his form like anyone else
my main point through all this, is that liverpool should have high standards and high expectations . those who dont meet them – shouldn’t be here . it seems quite a few fans dont demand the same level of quality as i do .
Bob, i will agree with you that Borini hasnt set the place alight so far and perhaps Rodgers needs to handle this situation a little differently as he needs to be filtered through rather than started ahead of a suso or sterling who have shined. To say he isnt good enough is very harsh.
at of all our signings sahin needs time to adjust as he hasnt experienced this league before, but it is unquestionable that he is a player! and you know my thoughts on allen.
I quite agree with your main point, those players that are not stepping up to the mark need to move on but to judge after 12 games is crazy.
last point on this . do you really believe istvan kozma should have had more than 12 games to prove himself ? arent you sorry torben piechnik and nicky tanner had over 20 games each to prove themselves ? isnt it a shame diouf + diao weren’t dumped after 4 or 5 games ? should jean-michel ferri have been given 12 games plus ? should players of low quality like otsemobor , welsh , diomede etc etc etc , be all given loads of games ?
no . if you are a pro , when you get into the team ,take your chance or you shouldn’t be given any more ( at leasy til you can prove you are ready )
i keep saying it again and again- we are liverpool , not west ham . set our standards high , perform to those high standards or get out .
The difference is, as I have highlighted is that we can use hindsight with all the players you mentioned and as we know what they contributed then of course we can say they werent good enough. But that is hindsight! for all we know Borini for example, may go on to break records at the club, he may not but you are happy to judge on 11 games? he is 21 and the manager knows his game inside out.
The Borini example for me is a player that perhaps needed to be eased in gradually and perhaps got thrust into the limelight because of the transfer window balls up. your willingness to judge so quickly is worrying.
an additional question for you bob:
If we take your model and we cast aside the players you dont rate, Borini and Allen, because they havent performed in your opinion to your standards after 12 games then what? we sell in january and replace with another 2 that our scouts have identified. what if they dont work out after 12 games? sell and replace in the summer? crazy!
teams perform when they are settled and know one another! this has been the key behind United’s conituined success, they have been settled on and off the pitch in the ferguson era and perhaps have won more than their team on paper should have done.
teams perform only when they have good / great players , not when they are settled . you wont find a more settled squad than reading , + man city were anything but settled last season with all their tevez + balotelli problems . if that doesnt prove that theory as nonsense – nothing will .
like i said before – perform or get them out . yes in january if a player is not doing it . look at robbie keane , he wasnt doing it – so get rid , yes we made a bad loss , but that why the managers get paid big bucks – to buy the right ones . a manager will live or die by the players he buys , not pretty football . ultimately if the manager is buying badly and costing the club millions , then its time for him to go . there is no point in keeping a player ( even after 6 months ) if he is not performing .its rodgers job to insure his buys ( borini , allen assaidi ) are good enough and will perform well . and its his fault if they aren’t .
Teams don’t only perform when they have good/great players, what nonsense. The galactico’s were rammed full of star names but did not bring the trophies they should. Greece won the euro’s, Wimbledon! We could both carry on listing examples to prove our point, but it is fair to say a team performs better when they play together consistently. The city example you gave is a good point, bar tevez the other 10 starting players were consistent. Players need to build partnerships and get used to how each other play.
The Keane scenario worked out well for us didn’t it! You can’t keep a high turn over of any staff at a club let alone playing staff and expect to be competitive consistently. Qpr have had 60 odd players over 2 years for example.
Of course Rodgers will live and die by his signings but you are judging them after 12 games! Ans one of those was voted OUR player of the month for August.
Where I agree with your theory to some extent is the purchase of expensive established players! Keane like you say, Torres, Suarez all cost a lot of money and are the signing that is to hit the ground running. Rodgers signings are young lads he knows
personally i dont think any of BRs signings are good enough , i think our squad last season was dtronger . hope things improve in january
so you rate adam above allen? above sahin?
adam better than allen , kuyt better than borinio , carroll and suares better than just suares . maxi ten times better than asside . i like sahin but we badly miss bellamy too . formation better last year – if carroll had found form and we didnt hit post so much it would be great team , i think kenny is better than rodgers
adam better than allen? wow.
kuyt and maxi had to go unfortunately, in their 30’s earning champions league money, it wasnt sustainable to keep them.
I agree we miss bellamy but he left for personal reasons so nothing to do there.
And I agree about Carroll, I really rate him and FSG let Rodgers down when nobody came in to replace.
but losing kuyt, bellamy, maxi and adam and replacing with allen, sterling, suso, sahin and borini doesnt weaken the squad, certainly taking into account the formers contributions last season. Does it improve the squad quality? debatable but I would say yes. What isnt debatable though is that the squad has been made younger and the wage bill significantly trimmed allowing us to build for the future.
i dont mind letting our fringe players go . i dont mind bringing through yhe kids ( if they are talented ). if we need to trim wages – fine . what i dont like is spending what little money we had on average players . the 28 m spent on allen assaidi and borini would have been better spent on 1 top class player . we have two great players ( gerrard and suarez ) a 3rd would make all the difference , whereas henderson or spearing could do allens job fine . and borini and assaidis contribution is miniscule anyway
So we lose Bellamy, kuyt and maxi from the squad, which was thin as it is and would spend on 1 player?? Fine, which player in the 28m price bracket you quote choose us over CL? Would replacing 3 with 1 leave us even more bare.
So the holes left in our squad would be filled by youth? Big big risk! Youth needs to be handled right and too much pressure can have a negative effect and push back their progress!
Comparing Allen to spearing is bizarre.
no the holes would be filled by top experienced players like henderson spearing downing ,or the youth if they stood up to it
as ive already said , there isnt really a lot of holes to be filled by those 3 , they are not exactly vital .
i dont have a plethora of scouts to watch players for me , so just off the top of my head –
reus ,cazorla , schurrle ,gotze , eriksen , krasnic , hamsik
with some of them you would have change left out of the 28m , to go get one of the upcoming great talents like holtby or draxler .
if you pay for quality more often than not , you get quality
if you pay average prices , you get average , usually
ps . as you said – yes its a risk to play youth , but as this season is a washout anyway , because of the poor bare squad, we might as well
I commend you on player selection as all excellent, my point is that those players attract attention from other clubs and we don’t have the bargaining power we once did.
I agree to an extent with your view of borini as he has struggled a bit, but has he been victim of a failure to bring in the established striker(s) Rodgers wanted. I think he needs time at the club as Rodgers knows him and his talents but his time on the pitch needs to be introduced steadily not thrown in at the deep end.
I think you are absolutely wrong on Allen, I think he has settled well and will mature and thrive with us. I think with Lucas returning we will see him more advanced.
Another good debate bob, with decent points made each side I think, and just goes to show what decent football chat can be! And thanks for not asking me to stop writing this time 😉
fair play to tim , you see sunshine through a haze of cloud , positivity in our most negative season etc etc
i have changed my mind , i think you should continue writing , but you are wasted here . an economic correspondent for a greek newspaper is just the job for you . they need someone to tell them how everything will be ok , how they are cutting back to build for the future is a good thing , and how the new prime minister will steady the ship and make them great again
im off to the match . until the next time tim
Interesting! But what’s a Greek earn? A large vase! Zing……I’m here for a while, try the fish
or maybe a job on the phone lines for the samaritans ?
surprise surprise ! another inept performance from allen . when he plays that midfield has a hole in it the size of north wales !
it really needs filling , in lucas’s absense , i would play hendo or even coady instead of allen . he is too small , too weak and even his passing was poor tonight
Haha predictable, yes yes the whole performance was down to one player! A near full strength Swansea play very well against a largely second string Liverpool who don’t click but yeah allens fault! Get him out, get Rodgers out sheeeeeeesh (sarcasm)
We didn’t play well and didn’t take our chances, and are in exactly the position as fans we need to get behind our team but instead reactionaries slag off and single out!
I agree with this -But not just Allen . Also not good enough are Downing Assaidi and Cole . None of them good enough